Loulou: Can you please give your full name, meaning the first and last name and where you are from and your age?

Alice: My name is Alice Shaw and I'm from Sierra Leone.

Loulou: Where in Sierra Leone?

Alice: Freetown.

Loulou: And how old are you?

Alice: I'm 17 now.

Loulou: OK. First of all, I'd like to know what your life was like before the war?

Alice: Before the war, everything was nice for me. I was going to school, life was normal, no fighting, I was living with my parents, my mom and my dad. After the war, my mom came over to the USA and I stayed behind with my grandmother. There were a lot of problems going all over the place and I could not go to school anymore because the war already happened. There was a lot of killing, schools were closed, no schooling for me so I was kind of stuck without going to school so it was really hard for me.

Loulou: OK. I understand. Before the war, you said your life was normal.

Alice: It was normal. After the war, it's kind of mixed up. Its normal in all the way, when I flew to Guinea, I could talk to my mom and we could communicate. I went to French school so I could learn another language other than English. So it was better in a way. In another way, when I was there in Freetown, there was nothing going on, just staying there and doing nothing. Just hearing gun sounds. It was really terrible.

Loulou: That was during the war?

Alice: During the war.

Loulou: When did you the war affect you?

Alice: In 1997 or so.

Loulou: Where were you at the time?

Alice: May 25, I think I was in Freetown, and I fled to Guinea. I stayed there for two years or so and I went back to Freetown. It was in '98 –no 2000.

Loulou: You said the rebels–you said May 25 they attacked who?

Alice: May 25, the rebels attacked... They overthrew the government. Something like that.

Loulou: And then, the rebels attacked and you had to leave for Conakry

Alice: For Conakry to save my life.

Loulou: I know you ran away to save your life, but were you confronted by any of the rebels? What actually instigated you to –well, your family to move?

Alice: Some of my family was part of the government, so there was a lot of confusion as to whether they were alive. That's what we had to find out.

Loulou: Were you at any point –your family I mean –were you guys at any point attacked by the rebels?

Alice: Yes. (Pause) They came into our house and they said they need girls. And if we didn't take out any girls to give them, we were going to be in trouble. They were going to either burn the house or kill anyone who is inside the house. So we just had to leave.

Loulou: And how many of you were in the house at the time?

Alice: That time, my grandmother, my aunt, well there were a lot of people I cant even remember their name because there were other friends around the place that came into our house. They thought our house was like a savior for them. I can't even remember the count.

Loulou: And then you said you had to leave for Guinea. How did you travel to Guinea?

Alice: By boat.

Loulou: By boat?

Alice: Yes, by boat.

Loulou: Was it immediately after they attacked your house?

Alice: After they attacked.

Loulou: Can you tell us how long? When was it two days, three days?

Alice: It was about four days or so because we were waiting for money we can have in the morning to pay for the transport. So my uncle had to go all over to find somewhere where he can earn the money.

Loulou: I just want to ask you something. When they attacked the house, what was it like? How did you feel?

Alice: Sometimes I don't even want to think about that...(Lowers tone) I don't even want to think about that. It was horrible on that day. It was horrible. (Pause) I don't even want to imagine a person, a human being to act in such ways.

Loulou: How did they act?

Alice: I mean standing right in front of you, telling you they are going to kill you or burn your house, kill your parents in front of you. It's really horrible to hear such things. And you can see them killing other people right in front of you. Even though you don't know them but you feel so sorry for them and you think you are going to be the next person.

Loulou: You saw that?

Alice: I saw that.

Loulou: That was before you left for Guinea?

Alice: Yeah.

Loulou: What was the atmosphere like?

Alice: It really told us that something is really going on. Something really bad.

Loulou: And you said you saw the people kill other people in front of you. And who were these people? What did they look like?

Alice: The rebels?

Loulou: Yes. What did they look like? Just briefly describe their appearance.

Alice: Appearance... just covered with uniform mixed up with civil clothes, mixed up with everything. I just can't describe it. I just don't want to describe it.

Loulou: OK Alice. And you said you went to Guinea by boat.

Alice: Yeah.

Loulou: How long did you stay in Guinea?

Alice: I stayed there for about two years. Or actually one and a half.

Alice: I was living in Symbia, Conakry.

Loulou: OK. You were there for a year and a half.

Alice: Yeah.

Loulou: What happened during your stay, because I'll give an example.

Alice: Yes?

Loulou: Most people - Sierra Leoneans - were discriminated by the Guineans. So were you at any point thinking about that?

Alice: For me it was really - in a way it was easy because I can speak one of the languages which is Foola. So it was not that hard. I just had to learn French. That's all because even if you do speak Foola or so you just have to know French. That's all.

Loulou: So you're trying to say that you were not in any form discriminated?

Alice: No, not much. No, because I can speak Foola and my grandmother is a Foola. That's why.

Alice: Yeah, after we went back to Freetown. We went back to Freetown because everything was kind of normal in a way. So that's why we went back, to see how things are going.

Loulou: And that was in what year?

Alice: Around 2000.

Loulou: And you said normal.

Loulou: What was it like when you had to leave because you were faced with such problems and then you had to return to the same place? What was it like? How did you feel?

Alice: I felt really bad because when we went back, they destroyed everything. We just had to start all over, like find material for our house or so because they had already burned the house. It was really hard. We just had to start all over. In terms of all this...Schooling again, [I] wasted all those years. It was really hard.

Aida-M: Why did you go from Guinea to Sierra Leone again?

Alice: I went back to the place because there were a lot of my friends and I wanted to see them. I just can't stay in another man's land. I love my country. That's why I went back.

Aida-M: And you felt safe?

Alice: In a way I felt safe because the kind of stuff that was going on in Guinea was really terrible. If you can't speak any of the languages, you'd be in trouble. So I felt safe over there than staying in Guinea. When they see your face they will know you are from this country.

Aida-M: So you came back to Sierra Leone and you said everything was normal.

Alice: At that time, yeah.

Alice: My mom said we should come. I said I want to stay there and go to school. If I came here, then its going to be different for me because of the cultural - in terms of the educational system, I don't know, maybe its different or so, so I just wanted to stay there and finish my education. Well, there was no schooling so I just had to come.

Aida-M: In Sierra Leone, the fighting was actually rural during the time you decided to come to the United States.

Alice: It was going on but not as it used to be. It was really cooled down for a while.

Aida-M: So when you came here, the war was not going on in Freetown.

Loulou: When was that, when you arrived in the US?

Alice: In 2001.

Loulou: Can you be specific? The month...

Alice: May 2001.

Alice: Hmm, I felt different. That is one. Different in the way that I see big buildings and I never saw them before. In my country, they do have them but it's not like here. So, it was really...I don't know how to imagine, to describe it, which was nice though. When I came here I was like, "Is this the America that people were fighting for?" That was the first question that I asked my mom.

Loulou: You said that you asked your mom is this the country that...

Alice: People were fighting for.

Loulou: Why did you ask that question?

Alice: Why I asked is because when I came I was thinking that when you come into this country, as soon as you get off from that plane you would find money all over the place. So when I got off from that plane, I asked my mom "Where is the money? Where is the money that people were talking about? Where is the money?"

Alice: Yeah.

Loulou: How long has she been here?

Alice: About six years or so.

Loulou: Where are you staying now?

Alice: I'm staying in New York... Staten Island.

Loulou: With who?

Alice: My mom...and my dad is here too. I'm really happy. I'm staying with them.

Loulou: Do you go to school?

Alice: I do go to school.

Loulou: What is the schooling system like here? I don't think you can compare it with the one you used to be in.

Alice: The schooling system here... It is different because like, here you have all the opportunities...You just need to make use of it, but over there we don't have it. We just have to strike...Have to do stuff.

Aida-M: How is your life in general? Is it better than what you had in Leone?

Alice: For now, I'll say it is better because for now, I can go to school and now I'm planning to do medicine. So, I'm going to head with that. I'm really happy. And I'm staying with my mom now, my dad, my two little sisters and brother. I'm really happy now. I only think of my grandmother. She is in Africa and I want to see her. Aida-M: Is she still in Guinea?

Alice: No, she's in Guinea.

Aida-M: So do you like it being here?

Alice: Yeah, I like it being here. Well, I'm thinking about after getting my M.S.A. and Masters in medicine, I'm thinking of going back and doing some investment in my country.

Aida-M: So that is your plan for the future?

Alice: That is my plan for the future, yeah.

Aida-M: Finish school here and go back...

Alice: Go back, yeah. I'd love to go back.

Aida-M: You are definitely going to go back?

Alice: I want to go back.

Aida-M: But when you first came to New York, you said you looked different... you felt different.

Alice: Yeah.

Aida-M: What was the major difference? What did you notice most that was different? What did you think, for example the people, because there are a lot of different cultures.

Alice: I know. Particularly New York, crazy people. Everybody is walking fast all over the place. And you can talk to this person and say, "Can you show me this place?" He'll be like, "Can you go and find out? I can't talk to you right now. I'm running late. Every time, people are running late all the time. No one can even stop one minute and talk to you. New York people are crazy.

Aida-M: How was it for you when you came here? How was it for you to use the subways and getting around the city? I mean, for me, it was really hard.

Alice: For me, it was really hard the first month until I started going to the IRC summer school program. It was easier then because I was walking all over and taking the subway...going all over. My mom would be like, "Why can't you stay home?" I would say, "No, I don't want to stay home. I want to know the places."

Aida-M: So you wanted to know...

Alice: I wanted to know...get used to the place, lifestyle, the people, know the people, and the style. Code of dressing or so.

Loulou: You said that when you first came here, you felt different. How do you fell now?

Alice: Now, I feel relaxed. Before, at first I was like confused, how can I adjust to this type of society that I'm not used to? Now I am adjusted. I can go about now without going with somebody. So, it's really relaxing now.

Loulou: Alice, I want to ask you this. From the previous interviews people said that they were in some ways discriminated. You know, like racial discrimination or whatever. Were you in any way discriminated?

Alice: Yeah. I will say one time. I was in the bus and I sat near one old lady and she was like getting up. I said, "Why can't you sit? I got up from the seat to let you sit there. If you say you don't want to sit, you're getting off, that's your problem." She said, "I don't want to sit there." I said, "Why don't you want to sit there? You're an old lady. Come on, sit." She started arguing and I was like "You are one of the racist people. You are one of the racist people in this country." And it's not good. We are all the same. Keep on telling here that it's no good. Everybody is just the same. No one needs to discriminate or so. That is one of the main things that I think I should go back to my country.

Loulou: I can't imagine myself doing such a thing.

Alice: ...Because like back home, when you see an old lady you help her. If you are sitting down, you need to get up so that she can sit down, but here when you do it that day I felt so bad. She was like, when I get up from this chair, I said "Ma'am can you sit there?" She said, "I don't want to sit there." Oh my god. It was really terrible. I just felt like going back and not just staying here.

Loulou: Have your opinions changed?

Alice: Now it has changed. Now if I'm sitting down, if I feel like getting up. Then OK.

Loulou: But why don't you bother now?

Alice: Because now I know that's how the society is. So I just have to ahead with that.

Aida-M: Alice, let me ask you one thing. You are the person who has been through the war and you know what it is. If you were right now sitting with somebody really important like the president, George Bush. Since you experienced war, what would be your message about the war? Would you say, go ahead, the war is good?

Alice: My message would be to the president here, George Bush, just to tell him to stop all the fighting and to call the people or the head of any country, talk to them and stop all the gunning in this world. Everyday, people are dying. People are dyeing everyday. So George Bush needs to think and know what he is going to do for this country –or for the whole world I would say.

Aida-M: Do you have an image, like a picture that stands in your mind about the war, like something specific that has happened to you or someone you know?

Alice: Yes, my grandpa.

Aida-M: What happened to your grandfather?

Alice: He's dead now. He was dead before they attacked their town, which is Kabala. It was two weeks before the rebels entered their town. He was saying he can't walk. I was thinking that what if the rebels attack this place, what are we going to do? If are going to take him from this place, there is no car around. So it was really hard. When I think about that, I really feel bad. I really feel bad.

Aida-M: Did your grandfather die, or did someone kill him?

Alice: No, he died. He was sick so he died.

Loulou: I also wanted to know, you are here now and you just told us that you are going to school and you want to become a nurse, all these great things are happening in your life, so was just wondering can you tell us that you know all the stuff that you were involved in and if there is, what is your greatest achievement since you've been here so far? Well I'll give you an example. I was introduced to this documentary project and have done two of them now, and right now I am interviewing you because at the end of the day we are going to do something about these interviews that we do. So these are some of the things that have happened in my life, things that I thought would never happen. I was wondering if such things have happened in your life so far.

Alice: Yeah, one of the big things I think is being in a movie which I was thinking I would never be in, because wasn't thinking about that. So it was a great deal for me to be in a movie like that, a Hollywood movie or so. It was really good for me. I'm going to a place twelve hours away from here, which is Hawaii, and it is a great deal for me.

Loulou: And can you briefly explain a little bit, just a little bit if you want to, about your film, because you said that it's a big deal, you said, a Hollywood movie.

Alice: I said it's a great deal because working with a movie star like Bruce Willis, and he's a Hollywood star, so that was a great thing for me. To see him, talk to him, and work with him was really nice. I loved it.

Loulou: Can you say a little bit about the film and the title, if you want to. If you feel relaxed about explaining that, good. If not, its OK. We are cool with that.

Alice: Well, the movie is about West Africa, Nigeria, and it's about a civil war that has already happened. They call it the "Biaful War". It's a war between the evil or the evil in the Yoruba or so, I can't remember. And it was during the sixties and seventies, around that time. So they were trying to react about that. And to combine with other war stories that is happening in the world now.

Aida-M: There is one more question I would like to ask you. It's about September 11th.

Alice: Lots of questions. Yes, go ahead.

Aida-M: You were here on September 11th, right?

Alice: I was, yeah. And I was crazy on that day. I just felt like digging the ground and going into it.

Aida-M: Why? Did that day bring you lots of...

Alice: A lot of memories. When I came here I thought it was like a paradise for me. I was going to relax. I'm not going to see any of this stuff; bombing of houses, that kind of destruction. So on that day I was in school. They just put on the TV's, saying two planes crashed into the world trade center. I was like what is happening? I just need to dig the ground and go into it right now, because I can't go back to my country and I cant stay here. So where am I to go? That was the question I was asking.

Aida-M: So you did not feel safe at all?

Loulou: But that was when it happened. How do you feel now? Because its been almost ten months now.

Alice: I know, it has been ten months. Well, now I feel a little bit safe, but I really feel safe in my country. I'd be in my country now than here because of the stuff going on in the world right now, talking about the middle east. That's why I can't even watch TV now or listen to the news. Whenever I hear about war, I don't want to see it. I just turn off the TV, go to my room and sleep.

Aida-M: So you said you feel safer in your country than you do here.

Alice: I feel safe here. A little safe here, about forty percent or so, but I feel more safe in my country.

Aida-M: Why is that? Because in your country there was real war going on...

Alice: I mean for now, because everything is cooler now. I mean to say that everything is a little bit cool now because they had elections and a democratic government. I don't know what's going to happen next because there are no people to trust or so.

Alice: That was what I was thinking.

Alice: No, no.

Alice: I was always thinking that now war is going to start here because as soon as they hit the world trade center, trouble started and also now I'm really scared. I used to enjoy walking all over the place but now I'm really scared.

Aida-M: And how did you feel about you know, you run away from your country

because of the war and you came to a country where...

Loulou: OK Alice. Thank you very much and we wish you good luck with all your endeavors.

Alice: Thank you. I thank you too Aida, Loulou.

Loulou: And pass the mic to Ishmael, Aida.

Aida-M: If they have something to ask.

Ishmael: My first question was that at the beginning you said when the war brOKe up in Sierra Leone you said your life was messed up. At the end, I didn't get it. You were not specific. Could you explain just a little more?

Alice: Well I already did.

Ishmael: I didn't get it so I just want you to explain a little more so I can get it.

Loulou: Start all over again please.

Ishmael: At the beginning when the war broke up in Sierra Leone you said your life was messed up.

Alice: Yeah.

Ishmael: So I don't understand what you mean by your life was messed up. Can you just explain it and be specific?

Alice: Well what I mean is that there was no schooling, right. And I can't go to school. Even to get food, you can't eat because there was not a lot of food for you to eat. You can't walk, go outside and walk and walk all over the place like you used to. When you are going nowhere you just stay in the house all day with gun sounds all over the place. It was really hard.

Ishmael: The second question is this: You were asking your mother, "Where is the money? Where is the money?" I just wanted you to tell me that when you were in Africa, when people are saying, "America, America." What was your image when you thought of America?

Alice: When I think of America, I think that when you come into this country, you see money all over the place. You would think that America is like a paradise. When you walk, you won't walk. You won't do anything. You stay there and it flows with money. The way people are going there, saying such things about this place, but some of them do...I can't even say this. They just use their credit card, take money go over there spend it and when they come back, they start working so crazy.

Ishmael: So now that you are here, did your expertise come true or are you disappointed?

Alice: Disappointed. It's not the same.

Ishmael: OK, another one. The other one is about your movie. I just wanted you to tell us about some things, like how you feel that you being a refugee, you have experienced war, you know what is war, you know how it feels, then to be in a movie and to act as a character in a movie about war. What are your emotions about being in the movie?

Alice: To act in that movie as a refugee, it was really hard. It was really good though. When I say good I mean like they brought in a lot of stuff about Africa. Other people who never saw Africa can think about Africa. So, I like it that way. They have a lot of people here that when you ask them, "Do you know this place?" They don't know. Even if you ask them, "Who is a refugee?" They can't tell you. So in another way it was really bad because it brought in a lot of memories, like the way they used to kill people...cut their heads, cut their ears. When I see such stuff, the way they make our people, it was really hard. It would like take them one week. I would stay at the hotel, not doing anything. Just relaxing to comfort myself so I wouldn't think of all this stuff. It was really hard. It looks so real to see the stuff.

Raeshma: Alice, during that one week you took off, did something trigger it in particular? You know, trigger means that things that happen that make you go off and do something else. So was there a scene in particular that happened to you right before you had that week off?

Alice: Yes, like the battle scene. They called them the "skinnies". Like the rebels, they were the ones they called the "skinnies". When I see them with their guns, I always think about our rebels in our country.

Raeshma: So what did you need to do for a week? What did you need to do for yourself to try and...

Alice: I was working on my school stuff, reading and then going out and walking along the beach, come back, walking all over the city for that one week just throughout all that bad stuff.

Raeshma: Did you talk about it with anyone else or did you just on your own just try to deal with it?

Alice: I talked about it with my teacher from French school and my aunt.

Raeshma: She was with you the whole time?

Alice: Yeah.

Raeshma: The one that came to see you?

Alice: Yeah.

Ishmael: So you are saying that it was painful to be in the movie to see all those things but on the other hand it was better because you educate people about war.

Alice: Yeah.

Ishmael: So my last question is, you were talking about you would rather be in Sierra Leone right now than to be here because it is safer over there than over here, because they have now a democratic president. So what my question is that before they had a democratic government body, then the war came in, they started fighting and destroying everything. So I don't know what is your opinion and why you say that it's better for you to stay over there than here. Can you just tell us that why you say that?

Alice: When I say that it is better, if you look at it even now–it has already happened –September 11, when I saw it on T.V. that day, I was going back. Even if you see it, its might be the same thing. You run away from war. You came into another problem or so. It was really hard.

Raeshma: What does it mean for you Alice, to have gone through what you have, and to turn one year older, because you are closer to being an adult?

Alice: I'm growing older. I want to be younger than to go eighteen, nineteen, twenty, thirty. (Excited) Oh my god, I'm getting older now. I want to be younger. As soon as you grow up you start to be more responsible and start taking care of all those bad stuff.

Aida-M: (Laughs) You don't want to?

Alice: No! I want to, but when I think about that, thinking about Africa, we had a lot of people over there...Hmm. We just have to work hard.

Raeshma: What do you mean, thinking about Africa?

Alice: I mean that my grandmother is there and she has all the relatives calling her...They need this and this. And if you have it, you just need to give them. You don't need to keep it. So you don't need to clap your hands and sit there without doing anything. You have to work hard to build your future, build your family.

Aida-M: OK Alice. Thank you for sharing your story.

Alice: Thank you Aida.

Aida-M: You're welcome.