Ishmael: Good evening everybody, my name is Ishmael, I'm from Sierra Leone. Sierra Leone is a very small country in West Africa. It shares two boundaries with Guinea and Liberia. It share the boundary northeast to Guinea and southeast to Liberia. It's a country that's in civil war for the past twelve years since 1991. The civil war is all about- I could say it's all about selfishness and greed. Through the national army as they said they are fighting in the war from, the government is not giving them something to eat, they are not giving them enough salaries, so they form a group that is called the RUF [Revolutionary United Front of Sierra Leone].

Sothese RUF people are the ones that for the past 12 years have destroyed, killed, rape, do a lot of destruction in Sierra Leone. They went to the city and do a lot of destruction and then go back to the villages. Well, since the war started 1991, it was in the villages first until it came to the villages in 1997.

Since 1997, since the war came to the city everything is just going from bad to worse in my country. There is no progress anymore. As I understand, everything is just going from bad to worse. There is no progress, no education; nothing is going on better in the country. The RUF and the government, they are fighting for powers. The national army, they want to rule the country, then the democratic elected government they said no, I'm the government, I'm gonna rule this country, I'm the one that the people choose, so I'm gonna rule. Then the rebels said well if you don't let us rule, give us what we need because we are the ones fighting to protect the country. Then I don't know what happened, then they start fighting each other, destruction and that other stuff.

Then for my own testimony, when I was a baby, I was raised by my great-grandmother, so I was with [her] in 1997 when the rebels came to the city. The capital of Sierra Leone. Freetown. Because I was in the city, Freetown. So they were looking for youth to join them. I was with my great grandma with two of my uncles. So that morning, we woke up early in the morning and we just hearing gunshots. The country is covered in smoke and fire. Then people say, the rebels have come. Since that time, we don't know what they look like, if they are human beings, if they are animal, we don't know, because we never see them.

So, they said rebels has come, so some of my neighbor describe them to my great grandmother. Then my great grandmother said, ‘well since this is the condition they are looking for youth to join them so they will fight and overcome the government and rule the country, so I want you guys to jump through a window and hide there for a while. If they came here, they didn't see no youth guys, they will just go away and do what they are doing.'

So we jump through the window to the next house, be there for a while then the rebel come to my house and they say to my great grandma, ‘we hear that you have three youth guys here. We want them.' Then my great grandma said, ‘no, I don't have them here, they left already, I'm the only one living in this house,' so my great grandma said. Then they went inside the house and started looking everywhere, under the bed and everywhere, they didn't see us, and they were angry, so they shot my great grandma on her chest. So she fall, she fall down. My other uncle was running to see what happened, if they shot my great grandma, they just shot. Then as soon as he jump through the window and come back inside house, then we will come again. Then they saw him and they said oh, you guys, we are fools, we are gonna kill like we kill (?), then they kill my uncle again. So they kill two people. My uncle and myself are afraid, we don't want to go inside, it'll happen to us again, so my uncle said let's just run away and get out of here.

So we just run, just going, we have no destination, we just going. So we run run run run until we stop in a village for a while till everything is calm them we come back to the city. After the destruction and everything, the rebels are able to defeat the government because they have weapons and everything so the government has to run away to the neighboring country Guinea. So they were the ones ruling the country for the past nine months. During that time, it was like many people die, many people die from starvation, no medicine, the offices are closed, all the banks are closed, nothing is functioning. Everybody ran away. Then we go to streets sell, there is no money for people to buy so everything is so expensive, so many people died during that time.

The ECOMOG came to our country start fighting to remove them from the state house so the government will come over and continue its job. So they fight for, I think, two months to remove them. And do understand they killed a lot of people too in Sierra Leone during the fight. You should not go out, you should stay inside, about two months, you do not go out to buy your food. People don't have food. Many people die. Some people they go to the market, buy their food, come and cook, the next morning, find something to sell, then you buy food and come and prepare for your children. So during that time, everybody was indoors, you're not going out. Many people don't have food in their house. Children die. Old people. Many many people die during this time.

ECOMOG and this Rebel they fight for about two months and the ECOMOG are able to remove them from the state house. So they went back to the villages. This time when they went back to the villages, it was worse than the first time. But after the ECOMOG removed them, when they went to the villages, I was in the city so we was living peaceful now, everything was fine again. The government came and started ruling again. All the banks, offices, everything were open.

Raeshma: Who were you living with?

Ishmael: I was living with my grandma's younger sister. So this happened ‘97, then ‘98 the rebels came again. Then they said well this time, we are not gonna leave nobody alive in this city. If they don't allow us to rule this country, everybody is gonna die. When they came, it was two o'clock in the morning, everybody was sleeping. We woke up, we hear now gunshots everywhere, people are running up and down. They said the rebels have come. Because when they came first to the village ‘97, everybody know who they are. Either people die or they burn the house. When everybody heard the rebels come again for the second time, everybody was confused. Say oh we are coming to die again, these people have come back to the city.

So when they came this time, they didn't go the state house for the president or the minister, they are just killing everybody they met, even little children, they put them in... I don't know how they call that in English, they pound them, they blend them. Then they open up pregnant women's pregnancy, take out the babies, rape women, take people's money and burn their houses, kill. So it was just like [that] in the city, because every side was closed, the boundaries were closed. So we are just running from one place to another in the city. If it's oh, they are not there, we run to that place; if they say they are coming, we run to the other place. We didn't have exits to use to go out of the city.

So after this time, then I have to run and go to Port Loko and stay with my stepmother. Then the fighting was going on in the city, many people died. Then we exit, we went to a village, we get out of the city Freetown. I went to Port Loko, everything was calm again, everything was fine. Then we start life again. Then my stepmother's father is the deputy chief in the village I am in this time. So when we come from the city we explain to them that this rebel, they attack in the night, like one o'clock in the morning, two o'clock in the morning, so they have to find people to secure the village so they will not come. So my stepmother's father arranged the youth at night, the youth didn't sleep, they stay up all night, light a lot of fires so the rebels won't come. While the women, they sleep. In the morning, the men, they sleep, while the women are up, they cook, they do laundry, they do a lot of stuff for the men. Then at night the men, they stay up. That goes on for about a month or so.

Then the rebels came again in that village. When they came, they went to my stepmother's father's house. They said we heard about you long ago. You are the one finding youth to protect the city. You thought we would not come to this village, we are stronger than the youth. So they kill my stepmother's father and my stepmother's brother. Then they find some of the youth that we are securing, to kill them. But many of them run away. But my stepmother's father and her brother, they are the first people they went to, so they kill them. Then my self, my stepmother, mother and sisters, we are able to escape from the house. Then from that day, we travel, finding out where to go out from Sierra Leone, because it's no longer safe. The first time they came they killed, [and] the second time, then now is the third time, so we don't trust the country anymore so we are just like finding our exits to leave.

So the first day when they came, we walked to a swamp, then we had to crawl in the swamp until we reach the next village. In this village, we would take a shower. Then we stay there for a while, then we start walking. We walk for about thirty days. Everyday we walk and sleep, walk and sleep. We walk, we find food to eat, because sometimes we have to dig the ground and find like, we have a food called cassava, then we have to take them and eat them. Sometimes we have to find fruit in the forest. Then we walk for thirty days.

But before we reach to the border of Guinea to escape now to go to Guinea, we went to a village also. We saw a lot of people there so we say this village is safe so let us stay here in this village. So we decide to stay in this village. In the morning, my stepmother and myself we went to the forest, we caught sticks [foraged wood] then we sell them to people so we can have food. So we did that for about a month or two in this village. Then the rebels came again in this village. So then my stepmother said even if we saw a town that is full with people, we not gonna stay, we gonna walk until we reach the border of Guinea, then the people will try and cross us and take us to the camp in Guinea.

So we walk, everyday we walk, we walk and sleep, walk and sleep. Sometimes we just like find a place with just a lot of leaves, then we sleep on top of the leaves. In the morning, we get up and walk until we saw a river. We wash our face. We don't have clothes. Sometimes we don't take shower, we just stay like that until we reach the camp. We don't have nothing, we don't have shoes. We have clothes on, but we don't have extras.

So we went to the border of Guinea and Sierra Leone. Then we stay there, because we just following the people. We don't know where to go, we don't know the border, we've never been in the places that we walk, so if we saw people walking, we'd just get up and join them. Most of the people, they are walking at night, because at night, they [the rebels] sleep at night, then in the daytime, they destroy. So many people they have a lamp, they walk at nighttime. Then in the morning, we rest for a while, then we continue to walk. We walk until we reach the border of Guinea and Sierra Leone. Then we stay there I think about three days. We don't have food, only what we get from other people, even some kids did die, because there was a lot of people in this border, everyone's trying to cross to get over. Some kids their parents can't give them food, they can't stay without food, so many of them die. So we went to the camp in Guinea. In the camp, there was a lot of Sierra Leoneans. We went to see a lot of people. But the camp also, is not very safe, because it's just like in the forest, like it's between, just like in the border between Sierra Leone and Guinea. So a lot of people living there because they don't have no choice, but it's not safe for people to stay there.

So my stepmother and myself we stay there for two days then we saw one pastor who was walking around, encouraging people, talking to them, to have courage, to be patient, everything will be over. So my stepmother went to this pastor and explained things to him. Then the pastor said, ‘since your husband is in the United States, I will be able to take you to Conakry. Then your husband will be sending money that I will be taking care of you guys.' Then the pastor take us to Conakry.

But before the pastor take us, in the camp, we saw a lot of things that we couldn't stand, that why we leave. Like we sleep on top of rocks, the ground is not flat like this. At night, if you sleep on one side, when you get up in the morning, you'll get up with pains. You won't have food to eat. Because some of the people that supply the food, they don't supply to extra people, they just give the food to the people that they know. Some people they take the food, they have enough enough, enough then they have to sell it to other people. People don't have money. There is no school in the camp. Then a lot of bad things, like kids my age they take drugs, teenager girls like me they prostitute themselves to have food. So my stepmother said, ‘well this is not a good place for us to stay because if we continue to stay here, maybe you will end up do the same things, so I'm gonna talk to this man so we go to the city of Guinea.'

So we talk to the man and the man take us to Conakry. We was in Conakry then the pastor called my father then as soon as we call my father, he fill out application for us to come here [to the U.S.]. Then after my father fill out application, we wait for about one year and a half before they call us for an interview. But in the city before they process our papers to come here, we undergo a lot of things, like we were staying with the pastor, but then the pastor wife said she can't stay with extra people in her house, so we got to leave.

So we leave and find a bedroom where we were staying with my stepmother. We stayed there, then the Guinean guys, they robbed us, they steal everything we have. They said this people they should live in the United States, they have money, so they steal everything that we have. Then my stepmother was confused because she was thinking about her family. Then since we have this bedroom we were staying in, everything was fine. My father was sending money for us, we was like having food. So now this thing has happened, she's like more discouraged. Then she said if my father didn't go to Conakry, she's gonna go back to Sierra Leone then they will kill her then everything will be over because she's tired to suffer.

Then my father travel to me on the way to Conakry, my father was with us for a month. When my father get here, she get a lot of stuff for us that we need. Then as soon as he left, then the Guinean guys, they robbed us again. They take everything that we have for the second time. Then we have to go and stay with the pastor again. Then when we was in the pastor, we were not allowed to sit in the living room, we had to pay for the bedroom we was living in, we had to prepare our own food, a lot of stuff.

Raeshma: Were you able to go to school?

Ishmael: No. I missed school for two years. I was not going to school. I didn't go to school [since] ‘98, I didn't go to school until I came here. It's about three years. Ishmael: I think I was about 12. When my father told us that he filed papers for us as refugees to come, we didn't even believe it because he has tried a lot of times for us to come here, we didn't come. He said, ‘well, I did this, I did that, but they didn't approve your papers.' So when he told us he made the papers, we didn't believe it, so we said, ‘well if you made the papers, come and let's see the papers.' We didn't believe him. When we were with him with those papers, it's like I don't know how to express it but I was not even believed that I would be in this country. I was even thinking that maybe if the fighting in my country was over we'll go back and we'll just be staying there until everything is calm, we'll just go back. But my father faxed the papers to us that said you are going to an interview, [from] then on we believe that we are coming out to the United States. When he just made the papers and told us that I made papers for you guys to come, we didn't believe that.

Question: When you were going for the interview, did you feel lucky that you were going to leave your country?

Ishmael: Well, I was so-so. One part of me, I was happy because I was getting out of the war, then of all the stuff that's going on at Conakry, and are going on in my country. I'm coming in a country that is safe, everything is fine. So, when I was going to the interview, I was happy. On the other side, I was sad because I lost my great grandmother. [She] was the one who was taking care of me since I was two years old. I lost her. I lost my uncle

also. Even until the day I was going on the plane, I was crying, I was feeling very, very bad. My stepmother said I supposed to be very happy because you're getting away from all the suffering and everything. I said, ‘yes, I'm happy but I don't have no good grandma anymore, I don't have nobody to talk to, because I lost her. She's the one who took care of me since I was a baby.' Now that I'm coming out to the United States, she was no more there, so it was hard for me.

Question: You still dreaming about those wars?

Ishmael: Yeah, even today when I'm talking about it, it's just like a picture in front of me. I'm seeing all the stuff that I was go, in the war and everything. Whenever I talk about it, it just make me remember about everything again. So everyday when I talk about it, I'm just seeing it in front of me as a picture.

Question: Do you wish to go back?

Ishmael: Yeah, if everything is fine, I would like to go back, because a lot of my family is back there.

Question: Is the war still going on?

Ishmael: Yes, the war is still going on. But it's not bad like before, because they say the British and other armies are there to talk in the peace thing.

Sumitra: Does it feel good to sometimes talk about it or is it difficult?

Ishmael: Yeah, sometimes it's good, but sometimes it's like very hard for me to share. I like when I share with other people. Like one day I went to the Collegiate Church. I was sharing in my testimony; a lot of people come up and ask me a lot of questions.

Question: Do you think because of your experiences, because of all the things you've seen, you look at the world differently? Do you look at different leisures differently and things like school, do you look at them differently?

Ishmael: Yeah.

Sumitra: How do you think you look at them differently?

Ishmael: Like, I see things, things that people take for granted, I see them common. Because we human beings, we are like nothing. Because the way I saw a lot of human beings dead, it takes me to another level of life, even though I was young. But I have like a great knowledge when I was coming. Like, I don't know how to explain that anymore. Like it give me more understanding about life. I don't know how to explain it better?

Question: Do you still have faith in people?

Ishmael: See, when that happened, I don't have faith in any country. This is the only country that I was like is the only great country to stay a country with peace and a great country, but after this country, I didn't trust no country to stay. Because the people that destroy and kill a lot of people in my country, they are not foreigners, they are like my brothers who are unions, we are also unions that kill and destroy a lot of people.

So when the thing even happened September 11th in this country, from then, I don't even trust this country no more, because I don't know, the terrorists would come back and do what they did. Even one day I was sharing with my friend in school, I said I didn't even trust to go in offices that are over 25 floors, go up up up. Because some people who died in the World Trade Center they went visiting, they all died. Even my house as I was leaving, I didn't even trust to stay there. Maybe they would come and hit the house, then you guys would all die.

Raeshma: So does that mean you don't feel safe here in the US anymore, or not as…

Ishmael: Well, I feel safe. I feel like 95% safe.

Agnes: Do you think you could grow up in this country and make your dreams or just kind of give back something to your country or America? With all these experiences, do you think you could give back, you know, make something of yourself, like have a dream. In America, you have school, things you can take advantage of. What do you find in America that really makes you happy?

Ishmael: The encouragement to go to school and to learn. In my country, when we was going to school, if you late, the teachers will beat you. If you don't do your homework, they will beat you. They don't encourage you to learn. The only thing they say is, if you guys don't want to learn, we don't have to force you, at the end of the month, we will have our salary. In this country, the teachers are more caring, they don't care about the money, but they have effort, they care about the child to learn. If when you went to school you are sad, they would try to encourage you and talk to you, to see what is the problem. In my country, we don't have those teachers. Like, if you are sad, they will start beating you. Some kids if they are late for five minutes, they won't go to school for the day, because you know if you go to school, they will beat you because you late. But in this country if you late for like an hour, you will go back, the teacher will encourage you.

So if I wanna do something in my country, the schooling, I'd like to stop that [practice]. So kids will like to go to school, they will encourage them to learn, a lot of students will consider education. Then I will also make it free for the schools. Many many poor people, even daily bread, they can't afford it, so they only thing they did is like come here, let me give you something to sell so at the end of the day, we'll have food to eat. So many child, because their parents can't afford money to send their kids to school, they are not going to school.

Sumitra: This is in Sierra Leone?

Ishmael: Yeah.

Raeshma: Thanks for sharing. You put so much thought… you pieced together your story from the beginning, we could see where you were. Yeah, obviously there was a lot of emotion there and the frustration of having to move so many times and thinking that maybe this time you were safe and having to go on one more time. Thanks for sharing with us.